Episode 109: To Certify Or Not to Certify?

In episode 64 we interviewed Patrick Thomas, the program manager for the MCP program which includes certifications.  There continues to be quite a bit of discussion around certifications, so it only makes sense that we give our take on the matter.  Both Steve and I are certified, so this may give away some of our thoughts.

Certification is a tricky thing.  Much of the value you get out of a certification is dependent on where you on in your career and what your next step is going to be.  This is going to be different for every person, so this decision is one that only you can make.  This can make a decision on which certification to get and even when to get it a challenge.

Our conversation really revolves around what a certification will get you and what it won’t help you with.  Do you agree with our list? Leave your comments below.

Here is our list of Pros and Challenges with certifications

Pros
  1. Measure your skills
  2. Foot in the door
  3. Exposure
  4. Confidence

Challenges

  1. May not really measure your skills
  2. Not the only way to show skills
  3. Lots of prep work, with little way to gauge your progress
  4. Lateral Help
  5. Text Anxiety

Episode Quotes

“Having those certifications listed on your résumé may make you stand out as a little bit better.”

“It gives you exposure to more stuff that you may not have thought about trying in the past.”

“There are just a lot of features to know, and then try to create a test that can cover all of that is just daunting task.”

“The blogging… or the speaking at SQL Saturdays allowing you to create that portfolio, certifications are no longer the only way to do that.”

Listen to Learn

00:28   Introduction of the topic: to certify or not to certify
01:41   Companero shout outs
03:28   Updates about the upcoming Companero Conference
04:20   A little teaser of who will be next episode’s speaker
05:39   Show notes links
05:56   The pros of certification
06:10   Pro #1: Giving you an opportunity to measure your skills
08:30   Pro #2: Getting your foot on the door
10:51   Pro #3: Giving confidence to the technology workers and the employers
11:45   Pro #4: Exposure
12:28   The challenges of certification
12:37   Challenge #1: It may not help you measure your skills
13:48   Challenge #2: Your exam exposure and the employers expected exposure may differ
15:53   Challenge #3: Creating a test for too many features will be a very daunting task
18:53   Challenge #4: It’s not the only way to show your skills
22:18   challenge #5: There is a lot of prep work required that is very time consuming
26:16   Challenge #6: Lateral help
27:08   Challenge #7: Test anxiety

Transcription: IT Certifications

Carlos: Hello companeros! Welcome back to Episode 109. It’s good to be with you again.

Steve: Yup, it’s good to be here. This week’s topic is to certify or not to certify.

Carlos: Yes, as we get back in here to the studio, Steve and I are chatting today. We kind of came with this topic. We’ve talked a bit about certification in the past but we thought we would explore this idea a little bit and kind of talk about some pros and cons of why you may or may not want to certify.

Steve: Yeah, I think what’s interesting with this is there are a lot of pros and a lot of cons and a lot of varying opinions out there depending on who you talked to.

Carlos: Sure, sure and maybe we’re going to squash some of this conversation but the reality is that you got to have them. I mean I have passed certification exams, you’ve passed certification exams. You know, we might gripe about them a bit.  Our conversation is not going to, I maybe used the wrong phrase there earlier, maybe not why you wouldn’t certify but maybe some of the challenges you will face around certification, that’s probably a better model there. I don’t think there is too many people out there saying, “Oh, don’t do that.”

Steve: Right, but before we get into the details there. Do we have any companero shout outs to mention this week?

Carlos: Yes, we do have a couple of companero shout outs, one coming from New York, so Alexander [name unclear – 1:53]. Sorry Alexander. I apologize. I should have practice that before we went on. But you know who you are, so Alexander is a long time listener. Got us after a little bit or he reached out to us when we had that little pause and encouraged us to get back on the air and to keep going, and so we appreciate that.

Steve:        That pause by the way was our summer vacation. It wasn’t like us giving up on it or anything.

Carlos: Yes, that’s true.

Steve: We also had a shout out from Aaron Hayes, and he just wanted to reach out and say that he appreciates our time for the podcast and he always listens to it on his commute and it keeps him up to date with some of the latest stuff in SQL Server. Thanks Aaron we appreciate that and Alexander.

Carlos: Yeah, we actually appreciate all those comments. Steve and I were talking before we started here. You know, we push this out into the internet, we laugh and we joke and we have a good time with it and then all we kind of see is download numbers. And so it’s nice to get just a little comment even if it’s that. We hopefully could sometimes engage in longer conversations but just to have people let us know that they are listening we appreciate it.

Steve: It’s definitely good. We don’t always know from those download numbers whether people are enjoying it or whether they are just thinking we’re crazy or what.

Carlos: Yeah, that’s right. Hey, check out what Carlos and Steve said in this, you’re never going to believe it. Oh boy! And we should note, so Aaron is actually going to join us at the Companero Conference.

Steve: Oh, speaking of which, what’s happening with that now?

Carlos:    It is coming up, and companeros you have two weeks left to register. So next episode comes out, that would be the 13th, September 27th is out cut off day for registration to just allow us to get ready. Yeah, so we hope to see you there. If you haven’t checked out the website – companeroconference.com, we will be down in Norfolk. If you are a regular listener to the podcast I think we’ve gone through the idea, we have a great lineup of speakers, we’re going to be doing peer conference. We have structured and unstructured time. We’re going to be going out on a cruise and so we think we have put together something that’s compelling and hope you’ll join us.

Steve: Alright, and this week it’s just you and I on the episode, Carlos. But next week who do we have that will be joining us?

Carlos: So next week I’m looking forward to Richard Cambell, so the Richard Cambell from the .NET Rocks podcast. Probably you’re familiar with them. He’s been in lots of different areas. You see him a lot on the Channel 9 as well. They are involved with the SQL Intersection or Dev Intersection Conference, and so he’s kind of all over the place. We had a user or a listener requested idea for building trust on teams and so I thought, hey let’s reach out to a non DBA, a developer type, and kind of get their take. I had a conversation, it was fascinating.

Steve: Yup, and I think that’s an episode that we’ve already recorded but it will be coming a week from now. I had a good time with that. It was interesting because he is probably the person that was on the episode who has had more podcast and experience than anyone we’ve had on any episode.

Carlos: Oh, no question.

Steve:  Because he’s done I think something like over 2000 podcast episodes.

Carlos: That’s right. In fact, we claimed that that episode was his 2000th episode. We claim that number. Yeah, that’s a lot of podcast. So for this episode on certification, if you want to get to the show notes, the show notes for today’s episode is sqldatapartners.com/certification.

Steve: Or sqldatapartners.com/109 for the episode number.

Carlos: Yeah, so I guess let’s go ahead and jump into that conversation, right. So we have this idea of to certify or some challenges that you face in certification. So let’s go ahead and start with the pros. Number one, certification is giving you an opportunity to measure your skills.

Steve: Yeah, it’s interesting because looking at that it’s one of those that even just preparing for it you can go through and see these are the things, the topics that maybe included on the exam. And you can go through and figure out, “Ok, where I am strong and where I am weak. What areas do I need to improve on?” It’s sort of a good way to build out your experience or build out your knowledge so that you’re a little bit more rounded on that specific certification.

Carlos: Yeah, that’s right. I mean, certainly you’re getting a broad exposure to all of the features and technologies that are in the database. Most of the time they could get sold in a book, you could take a peek there. I think some of the prep tools are getting a bit better to give you a better chance to get your hands on some of those things before kind of putting them in your environment.

Steve: I think an example of that for me was several years ago when I took the 70-461 exam. And I went through the prep material ahead of time, the whole XML in the database was a piece that I hadn’t done anything with at that point in time. But after doing the prep work I realized, wow there is a lot you can do there. Now, I’ve done a little bit with it since then but it’s not one of those things that I would have necessarily just stumbled across in my day to day work.

Carlos: Exactly. I think that kind of goes back to this idea, again we’ve talked a lot about on this program is sort of marriage of the technology and the business requirements, and that is as you begin to become more familiar what your business is looking for, the problems that they have, right. How can the technology help solve some of those problems? I think is you are able to combine those two then you have a very successful, you have a very interesting package there. You can be very successful as you begin to connect those dots.

Steve: Yup, yes indeed.

Carlos: So Pro #2 is getting your foot in the door.

Steve: Right, so what exactly do you mean by that?

Carlos: Yes, so I think a lot of times, and I knew this is the case for me particularly when you’re new, having the certification allows you to be able to say, “Well, hey, I’ve passed an exam. I kind of know what I’m talking about.” And so as you look for employment it just seems like particularly in the DBA space, the data platform space certifications are important to employers.

Steve: Yup, and I think that seems that’s an area that’s important at that time that you’re writing your résumé or preparing to jump to that next position. Just having those certifications listed on your résumé may make you stand out as a little bit better than someone else who doesn’t have those on their résumé.

Carlos: That’s right. I think it’s particularly prevalent or most needful. Let me try it again, sorry, Julien. It is especially important when you’re talking about career changes, right? If this is in technology so for example you’ve been a developer and you want to come over to data platform or networking, same thing and system administration. Or if you haven’t been in technology and you want to come in. You know, certifications are that way. Again, if nothing else just demonstrate that you have the vocabulary to be able to speak the language.

Steve: Yup, and I think an example of that, I worked with a guy who have been doing mostly like tech support type work but he wanted to do some more database thing so anytime there was a database project he could take he did it but then he wanted to prove that he knew enough about database so sort of jump out of that support role so he went and did the 70-461 exam. Took him maybe a year of prep work to get ready for that from where he was at and he eventually passed it and sort of prove that he could play in that area.

Carlos: Right. I think that’s maybe another point that we should make is confidence there. We didn’t have that on our list, maybe we should make that as another point. Even I remember going back and talking it in Episode 64 when we were talking with Patrick Thomas who was over the Microsoft Certified Professional Program at Microsoft, and that idea of they are trying to give confidence to the technology workers, not only the workers but also the employers. And so I think again, we’re going to circle back to this and sometimes those goals or what they think of the exams don’t always line up but it is important that both of them are looking to them and again want to gain that confidence. And then our last one which we kind of touched on a bit already I think is just exposure. You know, we mentioned getting into the new features. What’s there I think particularly now as new things begin to come out. What’s in the database that you’re not using and could you take advantage of it. I think exams help to do that really well.

Steve: Right, and I think I kind of jump to go on that under the measure your skill section with my story there on XML. But yeah, I mean it give you exposure to more stuff that you may not have thought about trying in the past.

Carlos: So those are our pros and interestingly enough we have a few more cons, or may not cons again, but challenges. We should change it to challenges. So as much as we talked about measuring your skills, our first challenge is that it doesn’t really help you measure your skills.

Steve: Right, and I think that might be better phrased as it may not help you measure your skills. I mean, the fact is there is some confusion out there and there’s things people can do to get the certification without really knowing what they are doing. For instance, people can cheat by going out and finding some of the actual exam questions online. I know after I took one of the exams there was a question that I wanted to look into a little bit more and I did some googling on it. And I find out after I had passed the exam that wow there is this exact questions that are published out there. And really if you have a good memorization skill you could go through all of those and memorize them and not know anything about the topic and passed the test. I hope that doesn’t happen very often but I’m sure it happens occasionally.

Carlos: Right, kind of along those same lines is the idea that we talked about employers wanting the certification, so what the exam is going to give you exposure to and what your employer thinks a certification is going to give you exposure to maybe slightly different. They are not always in harmony.

Steve: Yup. Now, I can think of an example there where I knew someone who was newer to SQL Server they had been working with it for a couple of years and they went and passed the 70-461 exam, and after passing that the employer’s take on it was that they could now do everything, anything with SQL Server, and that person could do all the skills of someone with like 20 years of experience. In a conversation with that person we discover that there is a lot of things that you do every day that aren’t part of that 70-461 exam test. Like everything that’s covered in 462 for instance.

Carlos: Yeah, and this is kind where the blessings and curses. Even when we think about SQL Server, right? It’s great for us because there are so many features that come with that but then when we talk about SQL Server we’re lumping in SSIS, SSAS, administration, performance. I mean there are just too many tools in there, and then from an employer’s perspective they are like, “Oh, SQL Server certified. You should now understand all of these things.” You’re like, “Well…” Yeah, it could be a bit challenging.

Steve: Yeah, and I think part of the key to that is really understanding what that certification has covered and being able to convey that in a way that whoever is looking at it, like your employer, understand what that means.

Carlos: Right. Another one that I added here and that is with the new versions, there are just too many features. The database now, I mean it can slice, it can dice, it can chop your onions, serve your veggies and all the other stuff as well. And so it’s interesting I think, and again we’ll see how those certifications come out but the 461, 462, 463 are still going back to 2012, 2014. Even there were two versions removed from that they haven’t quite abandoned that and I think it’s going to be challenging just with the sheer number of features that we have. I don’t know if certifications are going to change. Maybe we have new exams, smaller exams, pocket exams. I’m not sure how that will come out but I think there are just a lot of features to know, and then try to create a test that can cover all of that is just daunting task.

Steve: You know, I think some of those features that they included in the test are almost like features that the marketing team for SQL Server wants to have covered so the people know how to use the latest and greatest rather than knowing how to use what they need to use to get their job done. And those can be very demanding on occasion.

Carlos: Or the ones like you mentioned even the XML that kind of continue to get in there every version, then you’re like, “Really guys?” Having said that I guess, I should say full disclosure. I have actually participated in with an organization that reviews the tests and we go through, so on the actual exams and then on the practice test, practice exams. And writing test questions is really hard. And so you have four people, that at least four people, on this call with the moderator going over a question and all the answers and we’re debating back and forth, and we’re looking at documentation and trying to make sure the wording is just right and then you change something and you’re like, “Oh well then that’s going to affect this other thing. And what if they think of this and how they are going to interpret that.” It’s very difficult and I think sometimes we might complain a little bit about how the exam questionnaires are worded. But believe they are spending a lot of time and energy to try to get those questions just right.
Steve: Yeah, they certainly are. I think that we oftentimes forget that when we’re taking a test or when we’re practicing for a test.

Carlos: Sure, right, because I think as we get to later, when we’re in there sometime all that time and energy doesn’t help us and that can be frustrating.

Steve:  Yup. So another one of the cons that we have on our list is it’s not the only way to show your skill and that there are a lot of other things that you may be able to do and maybe even be able to do with less of the time investment to be able to show your skills. There’s whether it’s blogging, or speaking, or taking on a side project, or looking on open source project or any of those kind of things might be just as valuable in showing that you know what you’re doing versus taking a test.

Carlos: Yeah, that’s right. I mean, our pros was that idea of getting the foot into the door. Right, having that on your résumé, that’s not the only thing that you could put on your résumé to differentiate you. I think we’re going to continue to see it more obviously in the developer space. We’re seeing it a bit more but even like Github, right, so what your Github handle and allowing employers to go out there and looked at the code you’ve checked in, you’ve participated in, whatnot. That is another way to increase your profile and I think that to our advantage and it hasn’t been too far in the past that I’ve actually need to work through recruiters and like try to find a job. Oh man, what a hassle that it. Like I can almost, the back of my throat is like having this vile taste in it remembering what that process was like. Luckily, that’s changing a little bit and so it’s more of extending your network and trying to connect with other people. That will be the best and easiest way, maybe it’s not the easiest way to get a job, but obviously the most successful path. And so all of these other things like Steve mentioned, the blogging and whatnot or the speaking at SQL Saturdays allowing you to create that portfolio, certifications are no longer the only way to do that.

Steve: Right, and I think that may vary greatly with every employer too. I mean I had a job interview I remember several years ago where it’s like, “We don’t want to see your résumé. What we want to see is your Github profile.” And that was it, that’s all they wanted to look as a starting point. And at that point in time I hadn’t really done anything publicly on Github but I’ve done lots of other public stuff but I just completely struck out on that one. They didn’t care about certifications but then you go into another place and they do care about certifications. Certifications are the only thing, you got to be a little bit more well rounded there I think.

Carlos: Yeah, exactly. It’s not a one size fits all. And the other component there is what type of organization do I want to work for, right? I think that plays a role into how you build your portfolio. What’s going to be attractive to them is also attractive to you. That increase is a likelihood that you’re going to go there and be happy, and be able to contribute to the team.

Steve: And you know, it’s interesting that interview that they only wanted to see your Github profile. I was a bit disappointed when that happened but then I later learned more about it and realized I’m kind of glad that I didn’t get that job after I learned more. Another of the cons on the list is really around there is a lot of prep work required that is very time consuming. Now, it may be people are at a different skill levels or different points in their career that that time consuming part may vary. But I think that no matter who you are there is some prep work required to go in and make sure you know everything to be ready for that test. And for some people that might be a year of prep work if they are new, for others it might be a few days or week of review to be able to just get up to speed on that.

Carlos: Whoah, a few days! That’s pretty aggressive, Steve.

Steve: Well, I guess it depends like if someone has taken the exams over different versions for the last 15 years they may have just to catch up in latest things before going and taking that next exam.

Carlos:  Well, it’s funny that you say that because that actually happened to me on the 461 exam. I thought it’s writing SQL, like how hard could that be? So my challenge there was I actually really didn’t study. That was the problem I used to, “Ha, I’ll go in there and I’ll just do it.” And you have to have a 700 to pass and let’s just say my score was in the 600 somewhere, right. I was like, “Argghh”.

Steve: Let me guess, did the merge statements throw you off in the exam?

Carlos: There was a group of questions that I guess shall remain nameless that I think threw me off, that ended up spelling disaster there for me. But then I’m like, “Oh, ok I got a bone up on that.” So I guess I made the backwards mistake of instead of using the test material to find that out I used the actual exam to find that out.

Steve: Yeah. Which you know, I mean that’s one way to do it because oftentimes you can get a retake that’s free or not very expensive.

Carlos: Or reduced.

Steve: And with that, I mean not all the prep material is all that is prep up to be. I think that I did some work for a book publisher a few years ago. That was on the prep work for the DBA series, the 70-462. One of the criteria that they had for everyone who was contributing on that book and video series was that you could never have taken the 70-642 exam because for people who would actually taken the exam they sort of lead in to like giving away exact clues of here’s how you pass the test. So in order to get around the legal hurdle of getting sued in some way they said, “Well you just have to study what Microsoft says is going to be on the exam and then we write a book around that.” I did eventually after doing the work on that book. I did eventually go take the test and it was much easier to take after preparing that book or work on that video work for them but I can see that there were things that are very different in the exam versus what you sort of expect from reading some of the prep material ahead of time.

Carlos: Right. Yeah, that’s one of the challenges with the prep material. I’ve used the books before and it’s like they just go over everything and you’re like, “Huh…”

Steve: And they have to go over everything because you don’t exactly what’s going to be on the exam.

Carlos: Exactly, exactly, that’s right. And then the way they get worded and all the other stuff I guess that’s another hurdle, but just a sheer amount of material that you have to go over is a challenge. Let’s see, so the next one we have is lateral help.

Steve: So really that’ sort of saying that in most situations it’s probably not going to help you in your current position but it may help you if you are jumping somewhere.

Carlos: Right. Or you’re looking for something, either promotion. It seems like it’s a plus. I mean, it’s not to say that education is not good. We’re specifically kind of honing in on the certifications. Obviously listening to this podcast is a way to increase your knowledge and what’s in your skill set. But yeah, it seems and this is just a generalization but it seems in our experience it’s been, I want my certifications for my next job not so much for the one I’m currently in.

Steve: Right, so I think leads to another one on the con list is test anxiety. And I think that there is a lot of great DBAs and database programmers out there who are just awesome at what they do but they don’t always do well on test.

Carlos: And the format of the tests are changing. I mean, they are difficult, right, I mean to put things in order. It’s like A through J. It is knowing some of the syntax. It’s very very tricky. Now, this actually takes me back to Episode 10, the very very beginning, Thomas Frank, who runs a blog for college students. We actually chatted with him about some ideas of preparing for exams and kind of dealing with some that test anxiety, and so that was kind of interesting. You’ll have to forgive that episode that was one of the very very early ones so the audio quality is not the greatest there. But if that’s something that you’re thinking about it may be worth taking a listen to that Episode 10.
Steve: So another one of the cons as well is you can just keep taking the test until you pass, meaning as long as you’re willing to pay for it. I remember another exam that I’ve taken different from technology here was I’m a volunteer firefighter and EMT, and when I took the EMT Exam, that was way more stressful and way more detailed than anything I have done with the SQL Exam. But the criteria with that was if you don’t pass it you’ve got to wait a time period before you can retake it, so I was extremely motivated to make sure I pass it the first time. Whereas with the SQL Test, if you don’t pass it go back the next day or the day after that and take it again. It depends on your budget how often you can take it I guess.

Carlos: That’s right and luckily so there was I think was the 463 Exam, the Data Warehouse Exam. Oh man, I took that one at least three times, maybe four times, so good and bad. I mean, some of that again is just you try and balance what you need to know with what you have to get to pass the exam.

Steve: Yeah, and I think that and maybe that’s an approach you could take. You could just go take it and find out what you don’t know and then fill in the cracks. But also if you do it that way maybe you don’t enough and you just keep retaking it and filling in the cracks you’re really teaching yourself what you need to pass the test, not teaching yourself what you need to be a rockstar in that area for instance.

Carlos: Exactly, also true.

Steve: Which might be the way to do it for 463.

Carlos: Unless Data Warehouse is your thing, right?

Steve: Exactly, yes yes.

Carlos: Ok, so I guess the recap. Our pros, we have measure your skills, foot in the door, exposure and confidence.

Steve: And our cons were around it does not necessarily measure your skills, not the only way to show your skills, there is a lot of prep work that could be time consuming, it may help you if you’re jumping laterally but not in your current position, those with testing anxiety may have the challenge with it, and you can just keep retaking it until you pass.

Carlos: So there you go companeros, what do you think our list? Of course we are interested in your feedback. You can drop as a line on the show notes page which is going to be sqldatapartners.com/certification.

Steve: And you know just to follow up on all these. I mean as we’ve been through the pros and cons, and we hit the cons as our second half of the list basically. I mean overall I think it’s a good thing. I just think that there is a lot of positives and negatives with anything.

Carlos: Sure, and I think we change cons to challenges, right? So we are not saying that it’s a con to take the exam. Again, we’re both in there, so just challenges. Yes, so what do you think of that list. We would be interesting in hearing from you and comments that you have. Of course if you have other ideas or things we should be talking about on this podcast please let us know. You can reach out to us. I am on Linkedin @carloslchacon.

Steve: And I’m on Linkedin as stevestedman. And we’ll see you on the SQL trail.

Episode 108: The Future of the Relational Database

After a brief hiatus, we are back on the air to continue the conversation and let me tell you–we have a great conversation lined up for this episode.  The discussion around what will happen to the relational database, and by extension us as administrators continues to get quite a bit of traction.  Even within SQL Server, we are starting to see more features that don’t fit the traditional relational mode and a podcast listener inquired about getting our thoughts.  As I thought about a guest for this episode, I didn’t want to get someone tied to a product.  They, like me, would be biased and I wanted to get someone a bit removed from the situation.

Our guest today is Andrew Snodgrass, the research vice president at Directions and we chat about the future of the relational database and what the future of the data environment we manage might look like.  I hope you will find his insights valuable as an outsider.  While we don’t get into the specifics of what databases are mostly like to be around, Andrew does give us administrator some ideas on what technologies we should start exploring.

What are your thoughts around the future of the relational database?  Join the conversation and let us know!

 Episode Quotes

“So these things have come out as a natural result of trying to solve a problem that we weren’t able to actually do with SQL Server.”

“I think what’s going to happen is SQL Server is going to be there for traditional structured applications and database.”

“The great thing is that we can operationalize an R script in SQL Server.”

“If you’re SQL Server and you want to look at big data… you’re going to learn Hadoop.”

Listen to Learn

01:41 Thoughts about database evolution and transactional system
02:05 Ideas about big data and database tools and services
05:40 Single platform for data: is it a fair approach?
12:00 JSON data, storage cost and compute cost
12:48 Effect on the Data Team
14:15 R script on SQL Server
14:46 Role of the Express version increasing in organizations
16:44 Azure services, data lake analytics, U-SQL on organizations
19:05 Technical skills that are robust in line with big data and data warehousing
21:33 Segway about Power BI
22:28 Azure vs Containers
27:13  Andrew’s advice for executives investing in their data platform
30:57 SSIS, SSAS, Power BI
35:56 SQL Family questions

About Andrew Snodgrass

Andrew SnodgrassAndrew Snodgrass is the vice president of research for Directions, a organization that help guides IT executives on technologies, strategies, product roadmaps, and licensing policies.  Andrew leads the research and analysis of emerging trends in enterprise applications (primarily ERP and collaboration tools) and database management technologies with a focus on Big Data, business intelligence solutions, cross-platform mobile application development, and cloud hosting services.  Her is currently and adjunct professor for the Albers school of business and Economics at Seattle University.

Transcription: The Future of the Relational Database

Carlos: Andrew, welcome to the program.

Andrew: Thanks!

Carlos: Yeah, we appreciate you coming and taking some time to be with us today. We have kind of an interesting topic. Ultimately, our audience, our SQL Server folks, and we think about SQL Server, you know, we think about transactional system. It’s been around for a while although it has definitely evolved a bit. But one of the common questions that we get is what about all these unstructured data and even in SQL Server now we are starting to see that influx sort of kind of with XML and now we’ve got JSON, 2017 is going to have graph databases, Python, R. All of a sudden we are starting to see this intersection of what we could traditionally think of unstructured and structured data commingling in the same environment that has a lot of people of questioning; and not to mention the rise of other databases, right? It’s 2017 and Microsoft comes out with a new database technology and they are not the only ones. There are databases almost sprout out as often as applications all trying to solve a particular problem. And so ultimately our conversation today is going to revolve around this evolution if you will and kind of where the transactional system is going to end up. So I guess maybe take us through some of your thoughts there and kind of what you’re seeing and maybe what some of your customers are asking you about the same idea?

Andrew: Sure, along that line I think some of the rise of the M structure, the big data, semi structured, all these stuff have come around naturally and I think that the introduction of database tools and other services and capabilities have come about because as traditional structured, traditional relational database guys keep trying to force fit unstructured stuff into structured databases. And so these things have come out as a natural result of trying to solve a problem that we weren’t able to actually do with SQL Server. And so I don’t know that it’s necessarily that we’re seeing any kind of decline in traditional databases or in the relational industry that we’ve always been dealing with. I think those types of workloads continue to exist. I think they are still going to continue to exist and you still got financial systems, you still got procurement systems, and these things lend themselves well to a traditional, relational structured database model. But they don’t do everything. One of the things that I’d always look at was how do we handle situations where you need some kind of lightweight database management system. And SQL Server despite some attempts to give us lightweight database management didn’t always do a good job of it and so when JSON came about, XML you could say a little bit, but really when JSON came about and the idea of saying let’s go mobile. Let’s push data out to self describing. These seem like natural solutions and now that we’re seeing SQL Server come back and say, “Well, we’re going to try to make so that you can tap those sources.” I don’t know that I would necessarily think that SQL Server is trying to be everything although Microsoft might like to portray it that way. I think that SQL Server is trying to tap everything. And so it’s one of these things where I’ve got my traditional product list, my customer list, all my transactions that are in a nice, structured environment. We are working an application that people know and trust and love but I need to be able to get into other areas. I need to grab data from other areas and push data out to other solutions. So they are putting these tools into our SQL Server environments so that we can interact with those things intelligently and more seamlessly so we don’t have to push to an ETL tool or we don’t have to do some kind of extraction and then modify the data to push it out somewhere else and then bring it back. We can kind of put all these things into one environment and control it there.

Carlos: We’ve definitely drunk the KoolAid. I’m Microsoft kind of through and through if
(00:05:00) you will. Is that a fair strategy as I go and try and talk with businesses? One of the things that I like about this idea is that at least it gives me a common tool set from someone who’s been in SQL Server now for 15 years. That I don’t have to go out and learn all these other platforms, right? Now, obviously there are some differences, R or Python, so there is a learning curve but at least from I know the data in SQL Server there are some administrative things that I don’t have to relearn. Things like that and I think it will be easier. But it gives me the ability on a single platform to have all of that data. I mean, is that a fair idea or a fair approach?

Andrew: I think a fair assessment on it is I think that from an additional enterprise standpoint, I think it’s very attractive and I like it personally as well, large organizations, medium organizations, anybody that has applications that they’ve developed over the years where they’ve invested. This isn’t just an investment in skills and application creation and the rest of that but they actually have servers and they have licenses and all kinds of other stuffs that go along with that and the idea of saying, “If I can take advantage of what I already have and expand on it instead of trying to recreate it. That sounds very attractive. Here is a great analogy on it. There was somewhat type of when we went from client-server to web-based apps. There was this need to recreate all these applications so they work in a browser and it would have been nice if we could have kept our applications to simply have more kind of browser. And that’s kind of what we’re getting at here is we have all of our data sources, all of our capabilities, but we want to extend it. And that doesn’t mean you need to learn how to write web apps and it doesn’t mean you need to learn JSON and convert data. It doesn’t mean that if you want to go to Hadoop you’re going to have to learn Polybase and understand how to do a scale out compute environment and being able to tap those resources and manage that data. You might need to learn some MapReduce at the same time. But this is learning additional things and not replacing what you already have. And that’s I think part of the attraction of beefing up SQL Server to do more than it was before.

Steve: And I guess the way I’ve seen this happen a few times that I have talked with different people is that they’re using SQL Server, they’ve been using SQL Server in their shop for years and then they realized. “Ok, now we want to do unstructured data.” Big data as they often times end up calling it. And then they decide, “Ok, well we’re going to go with Cassandra or DocumentDB or CouchDB or DynamoDB.” Or one of those that is totally separate from anything that is SQL Server. I find that sort of the story goes with those oftentimes is that it’s kind of a decision. Are we kind of keep doing SQL or are we going to go with this other database or are we going to do a merge there or sort of using both sides of it. IT sounds like what you’re describing here is taking advantage of what’s being added into SQL Server so that we don’t have to go and look at those other technologies. Is that where you’re going?

Andrew: No. Actually, Steve, I don’t think that’s kind of the case. I think the merge is what’s going to happen ultimately. It’s kind of like buying a stereo system that’s an 011. You basically get a very generic set of components. If you really want the best you buy separate components. And I think what’s going to happen is SQL Server is going to be there for traditional structured applications and database and stuff but people are still going to be looking at Cassandra, cloudera, Hadoop, any of these for a true multiprocessing, parallel processing capability that they really don’t want to spend the money to try to make SQL Server do. The idea of that is if you go to a bid data solution you have a distributed computing environment with a lot of servers out there. Each with some local storage so that the computing the query happens locally on the data and you use parallel processing to do a lot queries across a lot of unstructured data at once to return the said information. If you try to do SQL Server to do a
(00:10:00) scale out and that same type of configuration your licensing cost alone is going to kill you. It doesn’t make any sense to say that you’re going to have 50 or a thousand servers each running a SQL Server Standard/Enterprise edition license. Oh my god, I can’t imagine the amount of cost that you’re going to have there. So what you’re actually looking at is you got a SQL Server environment that’s very powerful that has some really good SQL Server capabilities on it that uses Polybase to go out and tap that unstructured data that’s actually in a proper Cassandra, Hadoop deployment. If you really need to get in big data you’re going to have to look at a proper big data solution to host the data and run the compute. But you don’t have to run those stand alone. You don’t have to just do a MapReduce to get a data set that then you have to go through Integration Services or some other ETL in order to get in what your structured data. You will be able to do that directly from SQL Server so that you can query your structured information, your product list, your customer list and you can do sentiment analysis against a bunch of unstructured data out in Cassandra and bring those together in real time. That’s where I think the merging and the intelligence is going to be.
Carlos: Interesting. I think kind of with that a common point is like IoT, right? So you’re collecting, so all these sensors have all these information. SQL Server probably may not make the most sense for the repository for all of that information, right? But you have these sensors, you know, caches that on the web which you can then pull in to a Hadoop cluster or whatever else and then start to do that aggregation or some of that analytics on it and then pull in kind of the summary information and that maybe what you store in SQL Server and then of course then there is the reporting on top of all of that.

Andrew: Right, and that follows, Carlos, in the same line with the idea of JSON. It’s great that you can some native JSON stuff within SQL and you can push data out and pull data in. But from a storage cost and compute cost do you really want to store JSON data in blob columns within the SQL database? You are going to run some cost and performance issues that you might not want to deal with so I don’t think that’s necessarily the road with the JSON side either. I think store it where it make sense, where it is optimized and where it belongs. But I want to do stuff with that data and I want to do it in real time and that’s where bringing it into SQL Server and attaching it to business data make sense.

Carlos: So then let’s talk a little bit about the effect, are the data team just going to get bigger? I mean so we have like cache and some of this other caching layer that the programmers are already kind of doing. So now we start adding Hadoop and we’ve actually done an episode on Polybase. Now Polybase is still kind of an emerging technology. They kind of came up with the v1 but those worlds are still kind of very different so does that mean that I’m now going to have a SQL Server person, I’m going to have a Hadoop person, I’m going to have a Cassandra person or are you seeing organizations say, “Ok, guys. Now, it’s time to go learn Hadoop and you’re going to be responsible for both.”

Andrew: In some, and it depends on the size of the company. The really intelligent ones are investing in data architecture. It doesn’t matter just of saying we want big data you know everybody says that. How do you do that and how do you do it without spending too much.

Carlos: So the plumbing, the connections have become very very important. How’s that data is going to move and flow.

Andrew: Right, and so and the same thing is true now with machine learning. It’s great to say that we have R and Python in 2017 but what are you running this against? And what type of performance that you’re going to take on your servers with it. The greatest thing there isn’t suddenly we are able to do R scripts within SQL Server. The great thing is that we can operationalize an R script in SQL Server. And it’s that I’m going to R Studio. I’m going to build my script and I’m going to test it out in my data. I want to make sure everything is the right way and then I’m going to put this into a stored procedure and make it part of my application so that it performs the R script on the data, the right data, at the right time and then gives my users something useful.

Carlos: Exactly. I think now, so having said that do you see the role of the Express version increasing in organizations? I feel like adding some of that functionality
(00:15:00) to Express was a direct result of the rise of open source and particularly MySQL. And so to that idea now that I have the capabilities, and when we start creating these models maybe we don’t need 10 years worth of data. I need a month’s worth, a quarter’s worth. And then I can push that off unto an Express version let my data scientist or analyst or to whoever run all the items they want and then once they’ve decided, “Oh, I think this is where we want to go.” Then again kind of that integration, that’s in SQL Server already I could just move that into my production environment and have a more seamless experience.

Andrew: That’s a really interesting question on that. Most of our customers tend to be larger enterprises and so they have their MSDN Visual Studio subscriptions and even the data scientist they are putting MSDN Enterprise edition on or Standard and running it from there. I don’t know any answer for that. I think you probably could.

Carlos: Sure, the limitations that you’re going to run into. You know, 10GB or whatever. But again it’s that I can move that off my environment with the flexibility I get the tools so I guess I’m kind of interested to see how that plays off or plays out. Obviously, if you are Fortune 5,000 Company maybe that doesn’t makes sense but for these smaller organizations they have a couple of people trying to work on this. It will be interesting to see what happens I think.

Andrew: You know, on that line opening the door on that one for some of the may have customers both large and small we are seeing the use of Azure services spinning up capability there, moving data out, testing it out and then scaling down is a way of getting around local deployments and testing. Like Azure SQL Data Warehouse, all of a sudden you’ve got somebody who has 10 or 15 years or 20 years with a historical equipment data or performance data and they push this up to an Azure service and then run one of the analytics services against it. You know, they are doing some machine learning and some bigger analytics that they would never attempt on premises.

Carlos: Sure, because once they’re done they could just toss that out or spin it down.

Andrew: You know, and along those lines you’ve got Azure Data Lake analytics which was supposed to be originally just for going against the Data Lake storing environment with a bunch of unstructured data and all of a sudden they said, “Well, you know, we could tap into SQL database. We could tap into blob storage. We could tap into data warehouse.” And Data Lake analytics is all based on U-SQL and so we’ve got a really nice environment here for people that are comfortable with traditional SQL Server query capabilities to go out and run some really cool analytics and learn just a few new functionalities that are required for U-SQL and you got a scalable system out there to run these queries on that you don’t have to do on premises.

Carlos: Yeah, it’s very cool. I still think that some of that is like you mentioned for the larger organizations. I think as we start talking with people, I mean, there are those who are putting quite a bit of time to learn the U-SQL and take a look at Data Lakes. And I think obviously the bar is lowering but that’s still an investment right to take the time to learn some of those things and understand how they work. I guess like everything, all the technology continues to evolve and change.

Steve: Yup. It’s interesting because when we had our podcast talking about building your technical skills few weeks ago, one of the things we talked about was sort of the type of things that you can learn that stick around for a long time and the type of things that you can learn that are maybe a little bit riskier but they may go away or they may change rapidly. And it seems like some of the unstructured and big data and data warehousing pieces today are kind of within that riskier category because they are still sort of changing quite a bit. I mean are there any of these that you see that are kind of more robust to the point that or more mature might be the better word to the point that they are not changing quickly
(00:20:00) these days?

Andrew: Yeah, actually. Especially with the folks that are going to be listening that are SQL Server folks. You know, along that line if you take a look at Microsoft’s database landscape and say you’ve got structured, unstructured and semi and everything in between, the two that you would go into that are not SQL Server would be Hadoop and JSON. Hadoop is underpinning so much to the big data investment that Microsoft does into that if you want in SQL Server you’re probably comfortable to start learning Hadoop and understanding that environment. That was the whole concept behind Polybase was to touch Hadoop. If you actually look at the Polybase scale out concepts, this is a Hadoop cluster methodology for doing compute nodes. If you look at the Azure services you got Data Lake which is a Hadoop environment on the backend. You got Cosmos DB which is actually a Hive environment in the back end, and then you’ve got HP Insight which is multiple Hadoop type clusters that you can choose from there to do any kind of scale out environment you want based on the type of workload. Yeah, if you’re SQL Server and you want to look at big data and you want to say comfortable with Microsoft you’re going to learn Hadoop.

Carlos: Ok, interesting. There you go companeros. You’ve been warned. You heard here first.

Andrew: Yeah, and while you’re at it, learn some Power BI because Microsoft is investing in that.

Carlos: Oh yes, that is true. What it’s interesting I think that still kind of goes back to the plumbing. We’re actually starting to see traditional SQL Server people/folks trying to spin up Power BI environments and you’re like, “Hey, really cool reporting tool.” You know, the functionality is there, web browser and all that but then tickets are a little too big and they are like, “Hey, how to make this go faster?” And you’re like, “pull that out .csv file.”

Andrew: And then you do a Power BI premium where you have dedicated capacity or you end up doing a Power BI report server on premises.

Carlos: Yeah, that’s just coming out and it will be interesting to see that integration with Reporting Services that continues to evolve. I wanted to circle back quickly if we could because you mentioned Azure. We’ve actually talked a little bit about containers and containers particularly in the Linux world has been all the rage but it almost seems like maybe, I don’t know if competition is the right word, because ultimately the technology that they can give are different. Well, Azure versus containers. So if you’re a large organization and have an investment or haven’t made the move to Azure to that whole spin up for the way idea. I feel like that’s what containers are also trying to provide you. So is it an on premise Azure competition there when we talk about containers?
Andrew: Like yeah, that’s an interesting one. Maybe I’m too old struggling to find out a really good set of examples of doing containerization of apps and saying we’re going to put this out here especially when it is database related app. It seems like there is an off light you’re going to put in that container in order to make it work. But you know it’s interesting in Azure right. Microsoft’s whole move towards Linux anyway with SQL Server 2017 coming on Linux and the containers and all the rest of that. Azure has the Azure container services which has been out there for a little while, a year or a year and half, that allows you to spend up VMs and containerize things and then everything in it. But they’ve also just released a thing and it’s in preview right now called Azure Container Instances. And this is one where it’s a true platform as a service type. They provide complete control in the infrastructure so you don’t know the backend VMs. All you do is you’re seeing computing resources. I mean this many CPUs, and this so much RAM and here is my container image. Pow! Put it up there. Scale it as much as you want, run it as long as you want and then kill it. You don’t worry about the VMs or any of the backend stuff. You can throw SQL Server into this, and you don’t know if it’s Windows or Linux and doesn’t really matter because there is web access to it anyway. You get the URL and you just run it and you go for it. And so that’s another one where Microsoft is just trying to say we don’t really care on the
(00:25:00) platform. We know it’s the service you want and so here is how to go about doing the container and you don’t care what’s happening on the backend side of things.

Carlos: Now, I feel like the best example, and so we had Andrew on the program, different Andrew containing about container. The thinking was and I guess I’m inclined to believe it is that, at least from a database perspective. I can’t speak to the apps. You could do lots of different things with the apps but the best or the classic case for containers in the database is a development workshop. If you’re building like .com type of thing, right? If you’re a actively doing development that whole idea of, “Ok, once you’ve published or once you’ve pushed code. Ok now, let me take that snapshot, create a container, push that down back to all the developers.” So now I know they are developing against what is in production and it helps eliminates some of this migration issue.

Andrew: Yeah, that sounds very internal.

Carlos: I don’t think we’re quite, although I have heard a few people talking about it, I don’t think we’re quite saying that we’re going to throw containers at production databases just yet but.

Andrew: Yeah, you know, sometimes I hear so much about containers right now and it takes me back when we first heard about big data and then about artificial intelligence and it’s like, “Oh, I’ve got to get me some of that. I don’t know what I’m going to do with it but I got to get me some of that.”
Carlos: That’s right, so having said that what your ultimately with the directions, your organization, your consulting CIOs on technology choices. Now, obviously your mileage will vary right and it depends. It’s going to come into here but what’s your, I know we covered some of this pieces, and I guess you’ve already mentioned if you feel comfortable with SQL Server, you feel pretty safe gambling on Hadoop, not gambling but learning Hadoop. You know, taking the time to that could be your next foray. What else are you advising these executives in making investments in their data platform?

Andrew: So the things that we’re pushing or talking people about now is really along the lines of how do you take advantage of not only big data and machine learning capabilities…
Andrew: There you go they are implementing IoT and so that’s one of the things that we tell the folks is not necessarily to jump in because these guys aren’t going to do major investments or major overhauls. These are like organizations that have to plan out years in advance of what they are going to be spending their money and then get authorization for it and have to justify it. They’re getting a lot of CFOs and other CxOs that are reading too many magazines on airplanes that are coming back and saying, “Why aren’t we in big data? Why aren’t we doing artificial intelligence? What about IoT for our organization? How come we are not doing better analytics and all these stuff?” And so we’re trying to show them what Microsoft approaches to a SQL Server and data overall, and in fact we’re doing one here in another week on business analytics and business intelligence and how this are all working in the vision going forward and where the investments are happening and where should you spend your time now and where you should do it in the future? And so we think machine learning is actually far more mature than people like to think to this. Especially in a traditional business environment, there is a lot of stuff that is out there that the community has developed over the years either on R or Python. Now is the time. If you were ignoring it before saying we got to wait and see, now is the time to jump into it. The other area that we’re telling them to get into is taking a look
(00:30:00) now at better business intelligence and data sources on premises. This whole Power BI Report Server if you guys haven’t spend time in it we’re telling them to bring that in and take a look at it. One of the other one that is kind of surprising is any traditional ETL workloads that you have going on were you’ve been suing integration services for years. You know, ETL is changing, the idea that SQL Server’s database engine has the ability to go out and tap these resources in real time and do transformations. You might not be doing ETL the way you did for the last 10 years. Integration services, I don’t see getting a whole lot of investment. I see a lot more going into analysis services. We’re going to do real time queries and being stuff together and transform it there not in Integration Services. And so I think that’s going to be kind of a change for organization. You know, and that’s going to be one if you’ve invested in SSIS you’re not going to go out and swap it next month or next year. This is going to be like a multiyear thing. New stuff we bring in, we’re going to actually bring in directly. We are not going to run it through an ETL.

Carlos: Well, now see you’ll forgive me I guess maybe that my connections aren’t quite there. How am I getting the data? When I think of SSIS, I am thinking about it is that glue that takes me from my transactional system, into my cube, or it’s doing some transformation there for me. There are additional components now. I mean, we’ve talked about Polybase, so SSAS, the analysis services, now has these connectors to actually go out and grab this information in an ample time.

Andrew: Oh yeah. 2017 baby! Here we go, so Analysis Services in 2017 supports the M language. So all of the sudden all of the stuff you we’re doing in Power Query and Excel and you’re bringing stuff in and grabbing different sources, and maybe going out and getting a file list instead of just another data source that’s all coming in 2017 Analysis Services. So the big reason for that isn’t necessarily to make analysis more functional which was kind of nice outcome from it but they wanted to bring Power BI, and Power BI is all based in Power Query. And so in order to support that with Analysis Services in the new Power BI report service thing which is basically Reporting Services plus they had to bring in the Power Query engine capabilities.

Carlos: Ok, so now there is another dot connected because I know at least the initial version of Power BI Desktop, so the new version that you can download and install locally that only supports connections to SSAS. And I guess it makes more sense now if SSAS has a bit more functionality in it for you to take advantage of some of these other data sources because I think initially when I looked at that I thought, “Oh, that’s all going to be all cube data. I don’t want to always do that.”

Andrew: Yeah exactly, and it’s not. So what is Power BI report server when you bring it down and you install it basically we work on that reporting services plus because it’s just really the same thing. There are a few other things. You’re on a modern life cycle for updates which I don’t particularly like but that’s reality. But you can host your PBIX files and so you’ve got that capability. But the PBIX files that’s the only one that’s limited right now, the rest of the RDL stuff and KPIs and all the roster are full capability. So the PBIX files that you have there can only go through an analysis services cube which actually winds up being your gateway which then you have to think of in that scenario analysis services being like SSIS. It’s the glue that goes out and grabs everything and brings it in, right? Now, that’s the first three to Power BI report server hosting so you’ll see that expanding. They are going to all kinds of data sources for PBIOX files so I don’t expect that to be limited for more than a few months.
Carlos: Ok, very good. Andrew, thank you so much for visiting with us, great conversation. I wish we could go on for a bit longer but I know that we need to wrap it up here. I guess last thoughts. Steve, do you have any last questions.

Steve: No. I think that there is just a lot going in this space and keeping on top of it is going to be interesting I think. Like we are talking with Power BI so Microsoft is investing so much in Power BI these days that everything it touches is sure to expand down the road in the near future. So I think that’s a pretty safe bet. I
(00:35:00) think there is a lot of interesting things to come here in the near future.

Andrew: Have you guys ever wanted to talk about that one in a separate one. Power BI is one of the other cover, not for this broadcast obviously but in the future.

Carlos: Yes, of course we’d love to. Again, particularly for this conversation we wanted to have somebody who was obviously familiar kind of covering that beat if you will but didn’t work for Microsoft.

Andrew: They are not even a customer of ours.

Carlos: To see just how that continues to play out. I think we touched on it a bit but we as database administrators we have our homework cut out for us. I think it will be fun to see how that continues to evolve as time goes on. Shall we go ahead and do SQL Family?

Steve: Yeah, let’s do that, so Andrew how did you first get started using SQL Server?

Andrew: Up until 2008 I was really kind of a Sybase kind of guy. I know it takes me back a while. We had a need for standalone database engines and Sybase was one of the early ones that allowed you to have a decent relational database environment that you can have on a separate machine. We have a bunch of travelers so they needed that and I did not want to go into Access or FoxPro which is where we originally started. So there’s Sybase and then as things progress we saw the direction for SQL Server and that became our standard and we moved over in 2008 and never looked back.

Steve: Ok, interesting.

Carlos: There you go. Now, as you’ve been covering SQL Server since then and then working with it. If you could change one thing about SQL Server what would it be?

Andrew: Yeah, you don’t like this. I changed Management Studio actually.

Carlos: Oh boy! Here we go. You know, because they have broken that out. They have their own development cycles now. Let’s see. What don’t you like about SQL Management Studio?

Andrew: Well, I like a lot that’s in it. I think the thing that would benefit them is as if they would make it easier for new entrance. One of the things that I find that is most difficult with new developers and new database people we bring in isn’t learning SQL or learning database structures. They’re getting all kinds of education on that. But setting it up, accessing it, using it, you know, some wizards something in there for the new guys to be able to get in and use it would be nice.

Carlos: Sure, kind of updating that almost to like a web type interface which is a little more intuitive. We’ve have all those buttons everywhere and you’re like what kind of I’m looking at.

Andrew: Yeah, and they got some stuff that’s nice but few years back we would seek new people and say, “If you really want to see how to build a query on this? Let’s do this in Access. See this nice wizard, we draw all these tables together.” Oh look at that that great query. You know, the query works on but into Management Studio and running it as a query there, “Look it works.” Why can’t they do that there?

Steve: Very good point. And I think, I mean personally I love what you can do with Management Studio but I have definitely seen the challenge when you have someone who is first time ever using it. They sort of get dumped in and don’t know where to go. There is this huge hierarchy in the preview in the left side that you can expand. How do I get to other query? Can be a little the bit daunting in the beginning?

Andrew: Oh yeah, the wizards for setting up jobs was nice. Being able to go through and take a look at especially some of the new views and performance capabilities. These are all great stuff but I got new people that we would like to get engrained in this just to make their lives a little easier so they get addicted as well.

Steve: Alright, so what is the best piece of career advice that you have received?

Andrew: Early on someone told me, “Don’t get worked up about office politics.” I said, “Look, focus on doing a good job and the people you really want to work for will notice that and promote you and those who don’t care about the good work you do.”

Carlos: Good things will come to those who wait.

Andrew: Oh yeah, and if they don’t then you’re in the wrong place.

Carlos: Sure, yeah, and then think of all the time that you don’t have to spend worrying and talking about, “Oh, what are they going to do with.” You know, I don’t like this person.

Andrew: Exactly, yeah. Just don’t worry about it. Just go to your job.

Carlos: Very good! I like it.

Steve: You know, that’s one of the things that I like about on the consulting side is
(00:40:00) you’re there to do the job and not to be in the politics. I like being on that side of it.

Carlos: Andrew, our last question for you today. If could have one superhero power what would it be and why do you want it?

Andrew: I know he gets ridiculed all the time especially on big bang but I really like Aqua Man. And his ability to breathe under water so that I could basically do scuba without any kind of limits. That would kind of eminent. Lots of people is cool too but this ability to breath underwater that’s my thing.

Steve: Hey, if you figure that out let me know. I’ll go with you.

Andrew: Yeah, but not around here. It’s too cold. We’re going to go south.

Carlos: I said that would be the last question but just one follow up. Where is your favorite place to scuba dive then?

Andrew: That’s going to be the Caribbean and basically anywhere, 7 mile off coast of Mexico, any of it. Just go down about 70 to 100 feet and forget the world exists.

Carlos: And you’re there. Wow! Andrew thanks so much for talking with us today. We really appreciate it.

Andrew: Oh, you bet guys, that’s a lot of fun.