Episode 84: MVP

Episode 84: MVP

Episode 84: MVP 560 420 Carlos L Chacon

The Microsoft Most Valued Professional or MVP award–while it’s hard work and dedication to be called an MVP, what are the benefits? Well, Kathi Kellenberger is a great member of the SQL community, traveling to many SQL Saturdays, speaking at conferences about SQL server, and this time she is here with us to tell us what it really means to be an MVP and the great journey it has been to becoming one.

Do you actually know the percentage between men and women MVPs in the world and US? How many posts do MVPs have on forums, helping others? How do they keep track of all the SQL Saturdays, User Groups, conferences they have been to? Kathi will be sharing her story, the process that she went through until she became an MVP, how you get nominated, and how to get renewed!

Episode Quote

“Do these things because you love to do them. Don’t do them because you want to be an MVP.”

“Women, you’ve got to get over your reluctance to promote yourself.”

“It’s not a job, nothing paid […] We’re kind of a free support for people in a way. A lot of what I like about it is that I can share my enthusiasm about SQL Server.”

Listen to Learn

  • What it’s meant to be an MVP?
  • Benefits of being an MVP.
  • MVP categories
  • The process and criteria on how to be awarded as an MVP.

Kathi’s Blog
Kathi’s Kerberos and SSRS course
Kathi on Twitter
Kathi on Pluralsight

About Kathi Kellenberger

Kathi is an independant SQL Server MVP and Teammate with Linchpin People. She is author of “Beginning T-SQL 2008” and co-author of “Professional SQL Server 2005 Integration Services,” “Beginning T-SQL 2012,” and “SQL Server MVP Deep Dives.” Kathi enjoys speaking and writing about SQL Server and teaches the occasional SQL Server class.

Carlos: This is Carlos Chacon.

Steve: This is Steve Stedman.

Kathi: This is Kathi Kellenberger.

Carlos: So Kathi, welcome to the show.

Kathi: Thank you and thanks so much for inviting me. I’m really excited about it.

Carlos: Yes, I’m glad that we finally were able to put this together, and of course, you know, the rest as I say is history. But this is something that we’ve been trying to get together since October of 2015. It’s a long time of coming, we’re glad to finally have you on the show.

Kathi: Yeah.

Carlos: And as your Twitter handle suggests @Kathi, right. You’re a family member to all and a great member of our community and so we’re excited to chat with you.

Kathi: Thank you.

Steve: We have an interesting, oh, go ahead Carlos.

Carlos: No, no, go please.

Steve: And we have an interesting topic to cover today and that topic is?

Carlos: Yeah, we want to talk a little bit about the MVP, Microsoft MVP. What it means to be an MVP and what’s it meant to you and so I guess let’s go ahead and jump into that, and give is a little bit of your story there. How long have you been an MVP first, I guess? 

Kathi: Ok. I was first awarded the MVP in 2008, and then in 2010 I took a detour in my career and ended up at Microsoft for about a year and a half. So I lost it during that time and so then I got it back again in 2013 and have had it every year since then. Kind of a weird back and forth but once I was eligible again I got it again. That’s how long.

Carlos: Now ultimately looking at the MVP website, Microsoft is looking for two professionals to provide support and guidance if you will to the community kind of taking their time to help others along their way particularly with the Microsoft technology stack. I guess what do you see or kind of the qualities of being an MVP?

Kathi: Yeah, again, probably should clarify that. It’s not a job, nothing paid. It’s an award that Microsoft gives so I feel like it’s in some ways we’re an extension of Microsoft sales because the things that we do I’m sure help companies use SQL Server more effectively. We’re kind of a free support for people in a way. A lot of what I like about it is that I can share my enthusiasm about SQL Server. I have this problem where when I learn something, the first thing that I wanted to do is go tell somebody else about it. And this is a great way to be recognized for that because really it’s like a 20 hour per week unpaid job in some respects because I feel like that’s about how much time I spent a week on MVP type activities. Some of it you get paid because if you write a book you get paid a little bit but for the most part it’s like a part-time unpaid job.

Carlos: Interesting. I had never heard that number before, 20 hours a week, that’s quite a bit. But when you think about some of those other things, I mean, you mentioned about writing a book, blog posts, speaking in front of people, preparing a presentation.

Kathi: Right, yeah, you know Perl site courses. I volunteer at a non-profit to teach people about SQL Server, User Groups, SQL Saturdays. Yeah, you know, some weeks are more than others but being an independent consultant right now if I only am billing 15 or 20 hours that week I am going to fill in the rest of the week with the MVP type stuffs.         

Steve: So then when you’re dealing that and you’re doing your 15 or 20 hours that’s focused on that. Are you keeping track of that and somehow having to report that to Microsoft or is that just what you do to be out there and be recognized as an MVP.

Kathi: Right, right. You don’t have to keep track of it in an hourly type basis. I did keep track of it for about two months just because I was interested in how much I was staying. But then that time keeping, you know, that gets to be exuberant in itself so I just wanted an idea so I kept track. What you have to do as a current Microsoft MVP there is a website where you are to upload your activities. So if I speak at a SQL Saturday, I have to fill out a form and said that I spoke at SQL Saturday, there were 30 people in the room, you know, linked to it. So you have to record your activities and that’s for renewal. So let’s say you are awarded the MVP, you don’t have to do anything for the next year. You’re an MVP, you could drop off the face of the earth as far community stuff is concerned. There are no requirements but to get it renewed you have to do things. You do report but it’s not an hourly type thing.

Steve: Ok, so then the title MVP stands for Microsoft’s most Valuable Professional, is that the right?

Kathi: Something like that, yeah. Most Valued Professional I think. 

Steve: Yup. And then so you’ve done all these work and you need to keep doing that work in order to keep getting it year after year. I mean, that’s a lot of things you need to do there and what are the benefits that you gain for doing that?

Kathi: My favorite is a free MSDN subscription so it would include Azure credits. That’s probably my favorite because I can really use and have available to me very easily any of the developer tools, SQL, Windows Operating Systems, things like that for training, or experimenting, that type of things. That’s really my favorite and other probably my second favorite which I don’t always take advantage of is the MVP Summit up in Redmond. That’s the last couple of years that’s been like either overlapping, one year is overlapping the past summit, and the last couple of years it has been like a week after, couple of weeks after. But that’s just really awesome because you were on the Microsoft campus. You’re surrounded by, you know, in my case lots of my friends are MVP. I’m pretty lucky. Get to hang out with friends a lot more and learn about the new things that are coming up. That’s probably the third thing that’s a really great benefit is you get a lot of insider information about what’s coming up, what SQL version is next, or all of the things that are not public knowledge at this point. Obviously you got to keep those things to yourself but that’s pretty cool. They also have webinars from time to time about things that are coming up. In fact, the last year or so they’ve really increased the frequency of those webinars so if there is a topic you’re interested in just watch and chances are there will be information about what’s coming up, or maybe what’s in the next service pack, or what are the new features in the next version of SQL. There are really a lot of benefits that way.

Steve: Ok. Now, I’ve seen that there’s like different categories of MVPs in each country like you might have a Data Platform MVP or an Azure MVP. Am I understanding that correctly?

Kathi: Yes. In fact, last year they revamped all their categories. We were SQL Server MVPs and now we are Data Platform MVPs. Another really interesting thing is that you can now be awarded MVP in multiple areas so for example if somebody is really focused on SQL Server but they’re also really focused on Windows Server they might get an award in that area.

Carlos: Got you. Yeah, PowerShell is probably another category that overlaps quite a bit as well.

Kathi: Yeah, yeah, and I don’t know all the categories. I just look for what I do so at this point everything has been SQL Server. However, I’ve overlapped a tiny bit into the security area because I did a course for Perl site and I’ve spoken on it at a few places on Kerberos so I just want to have and put those in sure security. Whenever you add your activities you have to kind of put them in a category so through people that have different areas. Probably one of the big, I talked about the tangible benefits but for probably another thing is if you want to be a consultant this is probably not necessarily that great to if you are just like a database administrator at one company. I was when I became an MVP originally and my company did not care. They really care less. But as a consultant or somebody with your own company it is gold. It’s going to get you noticed and really be beneficial.

Carlos: One of the things or criteria they talk about creating on as well or is included if you will of contributions and that is form replies and answers. You know, so just having, you got somebody who searches forms and what not or put questions out on forms. I am always amazed at the people who can respond, the #sqlhelp is probably another good example, right? They’re just like, they’re waiting, right, and they just. I mean, almost it seems like and what’s also interesting is that they have really good answers. So couple of people that kind of jump to mind is Aaron Bertrand on Stack Overflow. I don’t know how many points he’s got. Robert Davis is another one. He’s probably on the SQL Help. Seems like he’s always charming and every so often. I have never been able to get into that because I guess maybe a knuckle dragger I guess I don’t know all that much.

Kathi: Yeah, I’m sure you knew. 15 years ago I was on SQL Server Central forums all the time and answering lots of questions. In the 90s, I was on whatever was back then for Visual Basic and constantly answering questions and I don’t know if as I’ve gotten older I can’t multitask as well. I just don’t get, not only that, not only forums but the same people are on Twitter and on Facebook. And all these things all day long and I’m like, “Man, I’ve got work to do”, so that is one area where I did not contribute much. I’m very grateful for the people that do contribute but I do not. I’m more likely DB writing, recording, or presenting. Those are the things that I’m going to do but as far as answering questions, man. And the bad thing I really like doing the TSQL questions on at one time and actually at Pragmatic Works when I was there. They really encouraged us to answer question when we were on the bench. The problem is which I wasn’t really on the bench that much luckily. But the problem is for me someone puts a question out there. Maybe they have the schema and the example and then they, maybe they don’t so you have to asked them about it and you become so, it’s such a commitment to the question. You know, getting out the information from them and maybe you got a solution. Well then you’ve got a, you know, create a little temporary database, not a temporary database, create a little database and populate it and try to work it out. I just feel like it’s too much of a commitment so I don’t do it. But yeah, I pretty much stick and obviously Microsoft does look at that. That’s one of the things they look at but luckily I do enough writing, recording and presenting, and volunteering that doesn’t hurt me that I don’t answer questions.

Carlos: Yeah, the metric they give on the MVP side is this guy from Brazil. He had 728 helpful posts.

Kathi: That’s awesome.

Carlos: That must be total, over the year, 185 answers and 407 posts. Like, holy cow.

Kathi: I guess you can do that. You know, I do remember at one time and I was at jobs. I was getting paid and I was able to do some of that but, you know, I can’t.

Carlos: Sure, that’s true.

Kathi: I can’t, so I don’t know maybe I just can’t multitask anymore.

Steve: You know, I feel that same way too. I think that if I’m going to go and answer questions on Stack Overflow or whatever out there I’ve got to focus on that. And that’s something that I can’t really do when I’m doing work that I’m getting paid to do and there’s got to be that separation there. That bench time that as you mentioned it, if someone has a lot bench time well they might have more opportunity there but I think it’s a balance to figuring that out.

Kathi: Yeah, absolutely.

Carlos: Part of putting together those presentations or even the courses, I mean, you mentioned your book and having just put a book out myself kind of that time and energy that it takes to do that. But it also kind of helps you like the side benefits there is that you that become more familiar with that topic and can talk to it more rather than this specific TSQL problem that they’re having or they’re trying to loop or, you know, whatever the specific implementation is.

Kathi: Right, right, yeah. I just like what I do to scale. Occasionally people will send me a question personally. I will try to help them if I can.

Carlos: Right. And that’s different, if they send it to you personally that’s different.

Kathi: Right, yeah and sometime. I just had a gentleman who I don’t know if they were not familiar with SSIS but they had wrote a post on my blog site about SSIS, and had a couple of questions and I was able to help them very easily with that question and I felt good about that. But sometimes I feel like and I haven’t had anything like this for quite a while but sometimes I feel like they’re trying to get free consulting out of you and it is just too much. There are times whenever I’m asked personally and I say, you know, this is bigger than we can do, you know email it. Maybe you want to put this question out on this other forum for people. You know, if somebody sends me a question about replication or something. I mean, I’ve used it but I’m not an expert on replication. That would be better to go ask that on a replication forum.

Carlos: Yeah, there’s a fine line, right there. You know, particularly as the MVP, you mentioned the time you have to put in and then kind of chasing some of these specific problems when all the hundreds of myriads of variations that could take place can be difficult.

Kathi: Yeah, and that time just to clarify, that’s just an estimate of what I do. I don’t know what other people do and there is no requirement. That’s just pretty much what I do on average.

Steve: Ok now, you’ve mentioned that you’ve been an MVP twice and that you originally have that and then you went to Microsoft and you became an MVP again after that.

Kathi: Right.

Steve: Now, how did you go about getting that? Is that something that somebody nominated you for or what is that process and how does that happen?

Kathi: Right, so what usually happens, and this is kind of funny, but you will be at past summit or SQL Saturday and people start asking you, “Hey, are you going to the MVP Summit this year?” And then you will say, “Well, no, because I’m not an MVP.” And then they’ll say, “Well, you should be.” And then they will nominate you so that happens a lot. I guess I can say who nominated me originally because this happened in, I guess around 2007, people started saying this to me. Andy Leonard, and there were like three or four people who said I’m going to nominate you. Well, one person did and that was Andy Leonard. And I knew you just had him on a podcast the other day because I’ve listened to a part of it. He’s such a sweetheart but he nominated me. Of course I didn’t get it the first time. It took a couple of times for it to go through. But that’s usually it, you fill out this form. You can nominate yourself but that’s kind of weird but somebody who thinks that you deserve it will nominate you, and then you may or may not get contacted from Microsoft. And if you do then they’re going to ask you to fill out a form listing all your activities for the last year, and then you may or may not hear anything back again. It is kind of weir because it just seems like, if you don’t hear anything. If you’re not having a conversation back and forth don’t expect to get the email on the MVP Award Day so what I would think, you know. I would think you probably have some conversation back and forth with them. But even if you do that is no guarantee that you’re going to get it.

Steve: Yup, so mentioned the MVP Award Day and I saw recently, right after the first year, I think there are a bunch of MVP renewals and new MVPs out there. Is that an annual thing or a quarterly thing? How does that work?

Kathi: It’s quarterly. So it’s January 1st, April 1st, July 1st and October 1st. The really funny one is October 1st because it’s, not October, but April 1st because it’s April Fools’ Day, you know, that the really funny one.

Steve: We could all be MVPs for a day on April 1st.

Kathi: We could be, we could be, yeah, so it’s a pretty exciting day for you if you’re up for renewal or you’ve been nominated. You’re going to be checking your email every 10 minutes. But the frustrating is it comes out late morning or early afternoon. Usually because it come out, so they’re coming out of Redmond probably so that’s specific time so, you know, you’re waiting. It is an exciting day if you get renewed, so far so good. I need to tell you something really cool about me in particular with MVP. So I first received an MVP in 2008 and at that time I asked the MVP lead, kind of liaison at Microsoft that deal with it. I’m like, “How many women are MVPs of SQL Server MVPs?” He gave me these numbers. He knew at that time they were, this is 2008, there were 4,000 MVPs in the world of any area.

Carlos: Total?

Kathi: Total. At that time I think there are around 250 or 260 SQL Server MVPs at that time, and I don’t what it is now. And there were 60 SQL Server in the U.S. and 6 of those were women. So I was like, “Wow!” The numbers are just fluctuating constantly partly because Microsoft keeps hiring MVPs. They’ve hired a bunch of them recently.

Carlos: That’s true. They have been on the hiring spree.

Kathi: Right, but I think women have, you’ve got to get over your reluctance to promote yourself. I’ve had that. I feel like women or girls are taught from early on, you know, work really hard and be really smart but don’t let people know about it. I feel like we’ve been taught that from childhood and so I had to get over that and start learning how to really promote myself.

Carlos: eah, that’s interesting. As the father of four girls, that’s probably something I need to key in on because, yeah.

Kathi: Yeah, we were really taught to be exceptional but hide it. You know, I saw that in my own daughter when she was a teenager. Especially if boys were around, all of a sudden she was not quite as smart. Yes, you know.

Carlos: Interesting.

Kathi: Yes, because she doesn’t want to be intimidating. But I think that one of the luncheons at past summit one year they talked about becoming an MVP and they started and saying, “Hey, you need to let people know what you’re doing.” And then there were quite a few of us that became MVPs around that. I don’t remember what year it. I think the number is still pretty small compared to the guys. But I think we’re represented probably about the same percent that actually is working in the field so I guess that’s not bad.     

Steve: When you talk about letting people know what you’re doing or promoting yourself, what type of things did you start to do differently at that point in time?

Kathi: Yeah, I think it was a gradual process. But what I would do is, like say for example, I have a book coming out. I would contact Steve Jones and say, “Hey, I want to write an article that’s going to promote my book.” So I started to think of ways to promote myself. I’m not much on Twitter but if I have a new blog post, or have a new Perl site course, or whatever I’m going to get out there and promote that. I think part of it is speaking. Trust me I’ve got a C in Speech in college and I was a very shy, terribly shy. And speaking in front of people is not something I would do but I made myself do it. Those are ways to I think at least that I did myself out there. I look for opportunities that can help me in multiple ways is really what I do.

Steve: Ok, so how many times in a year would you say that you generally speak at a SQL Saturday or other big events.

Kathi: Let’s see, darn.

Carlos: Put you on the spot there.

Kathi: Yeah, yeah, I’m going to say at least 15. You know, I’ve had to go back out to my MVP thing because I have everything tracked there. But I try to go to at least 6 SQL Saturdays a year. I’ve spoken at past summits every year for the last four. I don’t know how long my luck is going to hold out there but somehow I’ve managed to do that. I speak a lot for the local User Group, plus I do a lot of remote so I’m going to say between 15 and 20 presentations a year.

Steve: Oh, that’s really good out there. I mean, that’s more than one a month and that’s a big commitment.

Kathi: Oh yeah, but you know what, to me once I started speaking it became a little bit addictive. It’s thrilling, you know.

Steve: I think I have that same feeling on the addictiveness of speaking. It’s just the travel side of it that slows me down.

Carlos & Kathi: Yeah.

Steve: Ok, so I guess at this point then is there anything else that you want to share with us?

Kathi: Yeah, I think that making MVP is a pretty, there’s a pretty high bar to make MVP and I don’t want people to be discouraged if they don’t make it. Keep doing the things that you’re doing. When I was at Microsoft even though I wasn’t eligible to be an MVP I continued to do the same kinds of things I was doing because I love it. Do these things because you love to do them. Don’t do them because you want to be an MVP. I think an MVP is got to be, the MVP award is a side effect of doing these things you love. I don’t love posting on forums but I’ll do it. But luckily if for some reason I was not going to be an MVP anymore. You know, that’s always a possibility, would I stop writing books, you know, maybe. But I’d still be writing blogs. I’d still be doing Perl site courses and speaking just because I love to do those things.

Steve: Ok, that’s sounds great. Shall we move on to the SQL Family questions then?

Kathi: Sure.

Steve: Can you share with us how you first got started using SQL Server?

Kathi: Yeah, it was kind of crazy. I had just become a developer. I was a mid life career changer and this was 1997 and I was working in a really tiny company that there were only four of us at this little startup. And they had bought a package of training courses for this other guy that worked there. And he was wanting to take, now they call them Systems Center, but one of those type classes Operations Manager, one of those type classes and the course just kept getting canceled and the expiration date was coming up and they said, “Kathi, how would you like to take one of these courses at this training company because it doesn’t look like this guy is going to use it.” So I said, “Sure.” And I saw there was this SQL Server class and I want to had took that class so that was early 1998. So if it wasn’t for that fact that that guy couldn’t get his Operations Manager class in. I don’t know how my life would have changed. I’m sure it would have got in you know. So that was a SQL Server 6.5 class, so that was my first actually getting to do anything or seeing it. And then shortly after that, well then I started actually using it, implementing it at customers.

Carlos: Sure, interesting. Now, in all that time when you were on SQL Server, if there was one thing you could change about SQL Server what would it be?

Kathi: Well right now, since Service Pack 1 came out and all of these cool features have been downed. I don’t know what you want to call it now in Standard. There is one feature I’d love to see back ported down to Standard Edition, and that’s read-only replicas and AG so that you can do availability groups in Standard and you can actually do that in 2016 before Service  Pack 1. But they’re only, they’re only for fail over. You know, I would just love to have this read-only replica in Standard. That’s what I would love to see.

Steve: Well, perhaps we’ll see that in the next Service Pack or the next version, who knows.

Kathi: Yeah, I’m not going to hold my breath though.

Steve: Ok, what is the best piece of career advice that you’ve received?

Kathi: Yeah, so like I said was a mid life career changer. I had automated an auction at my kids Grade School. I was a pharmacist at that time but I automated it with that Microsoft Access. And this other parent saw what I was doing and he worked for a company that produces training materials for technology. And he saw what I was doing and he said, “You could be a developer.” That was really the first time anybody, this was like early 90s and somebody said something like that to me, “You could be developer”. And he, you know, got me some training materials, encouraged me to take a certification test. So I would say that was probably the best advice, just someone saying, “Hey, you could actually do this.” That really got me started down this path.

Steve: And that was actually triggered the change from Pharmacist to IT side of things, developer, SQL Server? 

Kathi: Yeah, there are a lot of things that happened along the way. Probably the first thing that happened was I was in my last year Pharmacy college, working my Bachelor in Pharmacy back then. And there was a computer course where they had TRS-80s in the room and the first time I saw a little program, we had to type a little programs in, and record them on a tape recorder. The first time I actually typed a little program in that TRS-80 I was hooked from that moment on. It was like a light switch went off in my brain. I had programming and things like that as a hobby to just write some things for home up until I started doing some things for my kid’s school. And then really that automating that auction was the project that got me started down the path, you know, before I felt like it was something that was out of reach.

Steve: Very interesting.

Kathi: Yeah.

Carlos: Our last question for you today Kathi. If you could have on superhero power what would it be and why would you want it?

Kathi: So I’m going to change this up a little bit. I’m not really into superheroes that much but I love Star Trek.  I love Star Trek and I watched the entire Star Trek: Next Generation when I was on the treadmill last year. And this year I’m double dipping. I’m watching Voyager and Deep Space 9 both at the same time this year. I always love Star Trek but I didn’t get a chance to watch it a while when my kids were little, so busy, so now I’m actually getting to do it. Seeing episode here and there but my favorite technology on Star Trek is the replicator. If I could have a replicator and it’s going to look like a little microwave that I can just say to it, “Computer, you know, tea hot, Earl Grey ”. You know, they can get you any food that you want or any piece of clothing that you want just like that. I just think that would just be amazing. That’s what I want.

Carlos:  There you go. I think Amazon would pay a lot of money to have that not be built.

Kathi: You’re right. But we have the 3D printers now that are not quite the same as replicator technology but we’re heading down that road. People are printing all kinds of things, you know, so. Someday we will be there. In fact, Apress got a book. I don’t have the title in front of me but Apress got a book about Star Trek technology.

Carlos: Really?

Kathi:  Yes. And how they came up with the ideas, where the Science is today, where it’s going. There’s a chapter on each technology.

Steve: Oh yeah, it’s really quite amazing how much technology has come out of things that were surely science fiction. Like the communicator, and then we have the flip phone and now flip phones aren’t even new technology anymore.

Kathi: Oh yeah, these little computers in our hands that we walk around with are better than the SIRS I was using in the late 90s. You know, they’re amazing. They’re better than what they had on Star Trek, you know. Everything you could ever want to know is right in there. Then you can to talk it to if you want to.

Carlos: Well Kathi, thank you so much for joining us. It’s been a pleasure to have you.

Kathi: It’s been a pleasure for me. It was a lot of fun.

Steve: Yeah, thanks Kathi, this has been fun.

Kathi:  Yup. Thank you so much.


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